MidiGuitar4

Casio PG-380 Midi Guitar

1218315849_5b5784b61f_o Several months ago Jason asked me if I could fix a MIDI Guitar. I didn’t have the slightest idea how to fix one, and had only speculative knowledge about how they work, so naturally I said “yeah, sure, piece of cake”. If I’d have known at the time the kind of gear lust this project would create I might have turned him down at the outset.

The Casio PG-380 is a guitar that translates the notes you pick on the strings into MIDI Notes. Think of it like a Keytar, only its ACTUALLY a guitar. You may think that the name brand somehow reduces the quality of this particular instrument, but you’d be mistaken; this baby is top of the line. It can translate amplitude, hammer-ons, and string bends with very little latency. I’d soon find out how hard to find, and how expensive, buying one of these would be.

The problem sounded simple: only the bottom two strings of the guitar were producing notes. At first I figured this must be a calibration issue or something, so I tweaked some of the pots on the board, messed with action height, etc in an effort to get the MIDI pick up to hear and translate the notes. This effort proved fruitless so I turned to the web.

How do you translate audio into midi? I had a vague idea how you could do this with envelope followers and some basic filter networks, but I wanted to understand how this thing actually worked before I could say with any certainty what was wrong with it. I looked around for a long time on the web and turned up nothing related to the technical aspects of converting the output of a guitar pickup to MIDI. In the end I relied on the premise that there must be a filter network to divide the audio by string, and a logic device to convert that analog value to a digital stream of bytes. Since 2 of the 6 strings were working, I could assume that the logic device was probably ok. I turned my attention to what I assumed was the filter network.

I cracked open the case and had a look around. I followed the traces from the pickup back to the 6 calibration pots to the series of capacitors that make up the filter network. I didn’t see anything visibly wrong so I returned to the internet to see if there were any already reported issues for the PG-380. Sure enough I came across this post, which identified a common problem as deteriorating electrolytic capacitors in the filter network. It turns out that electrolytic capacitors go ‘stale’ if left unpowered for a long stretch of time. So, just replace the caps, right? Almost.

 

MidiGuitar-3 I’m usually pretty reckless (or overconfident), especially with my own gear, but when it’s someone else’s very expensive stuff on the line I tend to be a little more cautious. I prefer to stick with old PCBS, with large thru hole components. Think of your grandpa’s large print books. This was a modern board with tiny surface mount components, something I’ve never dealt with before. I searched around for some techniques I could use to get these little caps off the board and settled on the “hot tweezer” method. This is essentially taking a blow torch to a pair of tweezers until they’re hot enough to melt solder, then gripping the cap and pulling it off the board. This worked for the most part, though there were some persistent ones that I ended up just jamming a soldering iron under an pulling off. That “technique” ended up being a little messy; there is a plastic separator under the caps that melted all over the place. Those tweezers came in handy for scraping that crap off.

 

MidiGuitar-4 As for the replacement caps, I went with the smallest long lead electrolytic capacitors I could find. I had some of these lying around already and ordered the balance from Mouser. Along with some other stuff for future projects (and posts). Replacement was easy. Cut the leads short, flux the pads, tin the soldering iron, and tack one lead in place. After tacking one lead solder the other post, then fully solder the tacked post. Just like thru hole only you’re tacking the caps on top of the board. It looks a little goofy, but not as goofy as playing a keytar…

Capacitors in place I plugged the guitar in and went to work. Whoa. I hadn’t imagined using a guitar to trigger a synthesizer would be so fun.

Here is a drone sound, with a completely unnecessary string bend at the end:

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Here are some chords, which I thought the pg-380 did a pretty decent job of sensing:

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And how about a silly FM bass chord:

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I’m addicted and I have to give this thing back at some point. Looking around on the internet, these puppies go for upwards of $1500. So, if you have a less than perfect PG-380 for sale, perhaps one that needs some new capacitors, I’ll take it off your hands.

  • Sanjin

    I am experiencig the same problems with my PG 380. Because I want to sell it I need fix that problem. So could you tell me how much capacitors did cost you, and are they casio´s trade mark or I can use any other adequate. Maybe I am asking stupid questions but I am not very familiar with electronic components.

    Thank you

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      I used plain jane aluminum electrolytic capacitors. Nichicon was the manufacturer, here were the mouser part numbers:

      647-USR1H010MDD 647-USR1C100MDD 647-USR0J470MDD

      Certainly not Casio’s trademark. You may not want to do this repair on your own if you’ve never done something like this. Maybe you’d be interested in selling the guitar to me broken :)

      • mario

        how much is this guitar??

        • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

          They typically run about $1000 used

  • http://caps bob

    I ordered the above caps from Mouser, however when I pulled my board to change them i found 470 uf caps not 47 uf, which is part # 647-USR0J470MDD.

  • http://caps bob

    or does that mean 47.0? The replacement caps are much smaller than the ones labeled 470

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      You might take a picture of those and send it. I double-checked everything I have here and the ones I used were definitely 47 uF. It almost sounds like these have already been replaced on this guitar once…

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      This link should show you how the original board looked, and show you the values of the original caps. Those should be 47uF, not 470uF. And they ought to be quite small compared to replacement caps…

  • bob

    Boy i feel stupid..I pulled the wrong board. You’re right, 47 uf.

    I’m going to try the repair tody.I’ll let you know how it goes.

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      It happens to the best of us Bob :) At least you spotted the inconsistency before jumping in and unsoldering the wrong caps. I probably wouldn’t have spotted this until after I put it all back together…and it didn’t work.

      Good luck with the repair, let us know how it goes.

  • bob

    @Grant Muller The pg 380 is fixed. Great work. Thanks, Grant. Total cost $7, $5 of which was shipping for the caps. Place in NJ said they would fix it for $275, so I saved a bundle.

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Yep, shipping on parts always makes me cringe, the parts are $0.17 a piece tops, man I wish I had an electronics retailer nearby!

      Good to hear that it worked out for you!

  • http://www.teachyourselfsinging.com Timothy Kelly

    Hi Grant I linked to your PG380 photo and article on my new Facebook group. Midi Guitars, Digital Guitars, Technology Guitars, Hybrid Guitars. There are always people on the Yahoo Midi Guitar Group looking for where to get there PG380 caps fixed and or how to fix theirs.

    The caps are down on my PG380. So one of these weekends I will have to recap mine. My original caps lasted over 20 years. Thanks for the article.

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Thanks Tim. I might have to join this Facebook group now that I have a new love for Midi Guitars :) Good luck “recapping”, its not all that difficult, and you’ll easily get another 20 years out of the guitar (assuming MIDI isn’t overtaken by OSC…but I’ll have written a translator by then). Good luck!

  • Jerry Wendling

    Hi Mr. Muller

    Reading your notes. Going by your part #’s It looks as though you only changed three. I have been reading up on this and I was thinking if was 6 to 10 cap. that needed to be changed out. I just bought a 380 off e-bay that was to be working fine they said, but when it got to me you could just hear the midi. All six string work but no power, the guitar part is fine. Might you have interest in the repair of this guitar if I were to send it to you? Thank You for your time. Jerry from Michigan

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Jerry, it is indeed 10 caps that need to be changed. It only looks like two in my article here because I make it look so easy :)

      Just to make sure you’re dealing with the same problem, you said you could hear JUST the MIDI, does that mean when you plug the guitar into a keyboard or something, that you can play the keyboard? Are you saying that simply plugging in to an amplifier doesn’t work? I need to figure out exactly whats not working here before I take this on, the fix I define here fixes a problem with MIDI only, so if you’re MIDI out is working, doing the steps in this article won’t work…

  • http://machinedragon.com machinedragon green

    I have one of these guitars also, I did the capacitor replacement but it seems like im getting noise from the synth volume pot, how would you try fixing that. the synth is working its just covered up by rediculous static

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      You might just have a bad pot, you can probably just do a one to one replacement on that guy. I’ve never looked at this but as long as it’s not a digital pot and it’s just some 100K analog pot you should be fine. When I’m back at the shop I’ll take a look and see what it is, but if you can replace the caps, you definitely have the skills to replace one of these.

  • zoran

    I received PG380 guitar that is very good condition and mostly being in storage not played. I do not have any additional sound card but would like to purchase card with usefull sounds for guitar player ( nylon string, bouzukki, balalika accordeon etc. Does anyone know where I can find RaM Rom cards?

    Since bass strings does not respond to trigger I believe I have to change capacitors. Is that job that any electronic person can do or I have to have a specialist. I brought guitar in Guitar store and technician is scared to touch it.

    Please advise

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      As for where to find the RAM cards, I have no idea, the one that I was working with didn’t have one either. You might just do some general searching on the internet or eBay or something.

      I’m not surprised the guitar technician didn’t want to touch it, it’s a very unusual problem to repair. Their focus is really the mechanics of the guitar. If you follow the instructions, you should be able to handle this on on your own if you’ve ever soldered anything…I’ve been offering to fix these if people want to pay to ship them to me, just send me an email through my contact page and I can try to work something out with you if you want.

  • http://artandwork.multiply.com dave tutt

    Hi folks. I have done about 6 of these now with another one due in my workshop in the next few days. Several things about surface mount caps. First is sniff! If it smells like the tom cat has been in there then the best thing to do is to start with the main power decouplers and work out to those in the pickup filters. This will pay dividends even if all the notes are working as the response time improves with these changes made. Dont twiddle! Leave the presets alone until you have swapped out the caps. Pay attention to those that look deformed or misshapen as these should be replaced wherever they live. I use miniature electrolytics as Grant says although I did see one that had tants. I avoid surface mount in this particular unit as there is space for the better and more long lasting caps in there. The batteries and its compartment are typical of the period and are now rather long in the tooth! I offer a double stabilised power supply plugged in via a mini xlr connector in place of the standard DC power plug and cut out the batteries completely. You only get a couple of hours from them anyway so they really are not worth the trouble. I have also had interesting results with driving an external synth module of the same era namely the Yamaha FB01 which is a very early FM unit with I think 4 operators. Using one of these set to a brass setting you get the most fantastic raw brass section sounds. For a guitar synth of this vintage there is still a lot of life left in them and it is really only relatively recently that better units have come onto the market. If you want more or different sounds get yourself a small stage mixer and either a modern small synth (Yamaha PSR350 that the schools use to teach with would be fine) and mix everything together. Happy twiddling!

    Regards

    Dave Tutt

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Thanks Dave for the tips. Tants are tantalum capacitors for those who aren’t familiar with the shorthand. Good idea with the power supply modification, I hadn’t thought about doing much other than making it play properly again.

      I used to play one of those little FB01 models actually, definitely a fun desktop synth module, but for modern players I would recommend just getting a small USB->MIDI interface for your laptop and triggering any number of softsynths from your there.

    • Pete

      How do i buy a mini-xlr power supply of Dave Tutt..?

    • Hakan

      Hello there, synth / MIDI-guitar-people .

      I´m a happy owner of three PG-380´s , one black and two whites, on witch i´we done the capasitor swap ( all of them , 32 pcs each ) and they now work perfectly and tracks very fast with almost no latency . And as guitars they are awesome : )

      I got one question for you all ; is there any way to get more volume out of the mix-output ? The clean guitar output is normal , but the mix-output is so weak , like 3 dB´s lower , or so : /

      Is there a pre-amp for the mix-output , or are there any tweakable micro-pots on the PCB´s that has anything to do with the output volume ??

      It´s not a big deal , but i really want to know why it is like it is . Don´t you ??

      I also have 7 different ROM-cards and 3 RAM-cards that i save sounds to from my CASIO VZ-10M rack-synth ….. Happy twiddling it is , Dave Tutt ; )

      Greetings from Sweden

      • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

        Hakan,

        I took a look and there is already a preamp on this output. The key is to make sure you use a balanced output cable on the output, which is a TRS (Tip-Ring-Sleeve) cable, like this:

        http://www.amazon.com/Mogami-Gold-TRS-TRS-03-Balanced/dp/B0010CHS70

        If you use a standard guitar cable you’re only getting one channel of output power. I plug mine in via the mix output directly into my mixing console, via a TRS-to-XLR cable, and it is plenty loud enough.

        Let me know if that makes sense.

        • Hakan

          Yesss , It makes sence . Now i get it ! Thanx : )

          The only thing now is that the 2 separate signals i get with stereo / balanced cable is from the guitar output , not the mix output …… ??

          And the signal from the mix output is still weak : /
          ( One of my white PG´s mixed output is a little bit louder than on the other 2 PG´s )
          But it´s not a big problem. Now when i know how it works , it´s easier to separate the sounds when recording : )

          I guess this was a RTFM – problem , ( Read The F***ing Manual ) but i don´t got a manual : / I´ll scan the web 4 one right away ; )

          Thanx again !

  • http://IBIG.Or.kR JUNO

    Thanks for Mr.Grant Muller .

    I can have new world for my PG380^^ THX ^^ I have replaced all caps and almost fixed almost problem. Thx again ^^

    hmm.. if ok…. I have one question ^^;

    Do you know what Hex-Pickup model the Pg380 uses? ( model number something) I think My Hex Pickup is Broken. 5 and 6 string have no sound. I did a line test. so i’m sure. My Midi Pick up is broken. but I can not found any information on the PG380. If you Know Mr. Grant Muller. Please help me….^^ I will check until you respond. ^^ Thanks and take care~^^ (sorry my bad english)

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Juno, I cleaned up your comment a little bit so it read better. I did some research on the hex pickups but couldn’t find anything. I will take a look at the guitar I have and see if I can get any info on it, then take it from there to find the pickups. I’ve heard that the guitar pickup (the humbucker), not the hex pickup is often the problem in this case. Those are easy to find at any guitar store if you want to try that out.

      I’ll keep you posted.

  • http://www.joethequilter.com Joe Cunningham

    Hi Grant, I live in San Francisco, and when I got my old PG 380 out of the case it seems to need exactly the capacitor repair you describe. I am not sure whether to sell it or fix it. Do you take repairs from across the country? Joe

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Joe, I do take in repairs from time to time on these, I’ll contact you off line with rates and all that.

      • Jeff Barone

        Hello Dave, I would be interested in the PG-380 capacitor repair if you’re still doing them. Any chance you’re in the NYC area? Either way, let me know your rates and availablility. Thanks, Jeff

        Jeff Barone

  • Martinez

    Hey, I have a Casio MG-510 which was at a friends place for a couple of years and it seems to have the same problem with the capacitors. Or maybe he connected it to an AC power supply ;-) . I don´t know….in the end the MIDI and also the TUNE is not working anymore, just the red light is on. I would be very happy if one of you guys could repair it. As I do not live in the US, maybe it would make sense to only send the circuit boards. Cheers, b.

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      I actually have an MG-510 here at home, let me look at the board and see if it looks familiar to the PG-380. I’ve never repaired a 510, but if the principle is the same I should be able to take a look. Just sending the circuit boards would work fine in this instance, since I could just stick them in my guitar for testing.

      I’ll take a look and contact you offline.

  • bigroc

    I have a PG-380 that I want to sell. However, it does need some electronic work. All other basic guitar funtions work very well. I haven’t played it in years but I used to regularly performed and record with it back when it was new. If you are still interested in purchasing one – or know anyone interested – let me know.

  • Jeff

    I have a mint PG-380 for sale. I’m only a part-time player, not a pro. I used to do ad work for Casio back in the day, so they gave me one of these and it’s been sitting in my closet pretty much ever since. Just pulled it out to check it and it still works great. Tiny chip on headstock, other than that, it’s pristine. I’m open to all offers. WIll be putting it on eBay next week. Get to me beforehand if you want it.

  • InQ

    You’ve inspired me. I inherited a PG 380 from my brother-in-law, along with a 40 watt peavey amp. I liked it a lot, but there was too much latency. I was playing it in a Church praise team and the vocalists complained that the delay or latency was affecting them, so I gave up using the midi part. I replaced the neck and bridge pickups with Seymour Duncan pickups (neck a Quarter Pounder and Bridge with a DuckBucker). I have no idea what inspired me,but I decided to see if there was any chance of fixing the midi and reducing the latency. So, had to pass on my gratitude since this was the first page I found giving me hope for my Casio.

    Thanks!

  • Kylehonline

    Still interested in a pg380? I have a white one – much rarer apparently. Email me at kylehonline @ gmail.com if you want it.  

  • Ghinasaads

    Hello, its ghina i need to buy a midi guitar I’m from lebanon any help ? plz inbox me @ ghinasaads@hotmail.com

  • Nickweiss80

    let me know i have a barley used one.

    nickweiss80@hotmail.com

  • Brian Howarth

    What value are the capcitors ??

  • Brian Howarth

    do you want to sell the midi boards out of the PG380 ??

  • Brian Howarth

    Could you quote me also please same problem thanks

    • Muzishin

      I have black and white 380′s if you’re interested. John

  • FRGSNL

    I am not in NY but i can repair that jewel.

    • Ddropski

      i am interested in you replacing the caps in my 380 my email is ddropski@gmail.com please get back to me thanks

  • Pingback: Casio MG-510 Midi Guitar | Grant Muller

  • alex

    great post!  just had to share one thing though for capacitor removal – I came across this video which basically uses needle-nose pliers to quickly, cleanly, and easily remove the caps from the board – and I was shocked at truly how clean and painless the procedure was for removing the caps on the PG-380 board!  

    • alex

      basically, you just gently wiggle each cap from it’s plastic base with the needle-nose pliers until it literally just pops off the board

  • Petrescu Victor

    somebody help me please with the service manual for casio mg 500/510.i have those problms with the capacitors,but someone replaced them before with somes that not matched.please email me:petrescu.victor@yahoo.com

    • http://grantmuller.com Grant Muller

      Petrescu, I don’t have a service manual, but I did do a post on the Casio MG-510 that you might want to take a look at:

      http://grantmuller.com/casio-mg-510-midi-guitar/

      It includes the information about the caps as they originally existed.

  • Petrescu Victor

    I FOUND THE CASIO MG500/MG510  service and user manual pdf.is very usefull for everything about those guitars specially for reparations.i found the schematics,the tests procedure,what the switches do…. if anyone needs it i`m glad to help you folks.just email me to petrescu.victor@yahoo.com 

  • Ddropski

    dave i need the caps in my 380 replaced can you email me ddropski@gmail.com

  • Ddropski

    Hi Grant .. i replaced all the caps on my pg 380 and i use my guitar as a trigger into protools (i trigger kontakt and sampletank ect) ok anyways before i changed the caps my guitar used to track perfect in non chromatic mode i was able to string bend using the tremelo ect..now when i hit a note the stringbend sensitivity is too much and it freaks out and causes the wrong notes to soundor mabe a worbleing sound distorting the notes  … is there a bend sensitivity pot….i did notice there are 2 adjustable resisor thing in the lower left of the board could them be it?

    • Grantmuller

      I’m not actually sure if those are the bend sensitivity pots or not, but I’ve never had a problem with bends post-cap replacement. You may want to double-check all of the polarities and values first, though I doubt that would have a dramatic effect on bends either. Barring that, you could experiment with those extra trimpots and see if their is any appreciable difference

      • Ddropski

        im going to take this step by step and try protools on another pc … hopefully its just a corrupted protools… well not really :) bur i rather have that be that prob than my gutty being bad :(

  • Mcopani

    jeff from syracuse? give mark copani a call @ 4841018